Poll: Artisan's Contest Future?
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Yes, Keep it 57.14% 24 57.14%
No, get rid of it 19.05% 8 19.05%
Other (please elaborate below) 23.81% 10 23.81%
Total 42 votes 100%
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Artisan's Contest IV Input
Author MessageArtisan's Contest IV Input
Willmark
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Post: #41
RE: Artisan's Contest IV InputWillmark 03-23-2009

Revlid Wrote:
This is an input thread, not a put-down thread, so I likely won't comment again on this, but I utterly oppose the Artisan's Contest having any element of modelling or painting - that's what the Golden Hat is for.


Did I (we) miss something here?




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03-23-2009 06:34 AM
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Thommy H
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Post: #42
RE: Artisan's Contest IV InputThommy H 03-23-2009

The Golden Hat is the modelling/painting competition. Seems self-explanatory to me. If we're going to have another competition, I agree that it should be for something totally different (creative writing, scenarios, rules, etc.).


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03-23-2009 06:57 AM
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Revlid
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Post: #43
RE: Artisan's Contest IV InputRevlid 03-23-2009

Willmark Wrote:

Revlid Wrote:
This is an input thread, not a put-down thread, so I likely won't comment again on this, but I utterly oppose the Artisan's Contest having any element of modelling or painting - that's what the Golden Hat is for.


Did I (we) miss something here?


...

Erm.

I'm not entirely sure how you could have missed something here.


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Tarrakk Blackhand
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Post: #44
RE: Artisan's Contest IV InputTarrakk Blackhand 03-23-2009

revlid Wrote:
This is an input thread, not a put-down thread...


I think Willmark is wondering why there's hostility in the post.

But in all fairness to what I wrote, it seems that you and Uber are worried that there will only ever be 2 contests. Golden Hat and Artisan. What I suggested actually would create 5 or 6 individual contests specifically for individual ideas, yet keeping Golden Hat strictly for figures and Artisan for buildings and terrain.

Question for mods.....isn't there a link to a page somewhere on here that shows the past winners for GH's and Artisans? I'd like to see if I'm right in stating that GH was for figures and Artisan's was for models.


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This post was last modified: 03-23-2009 10:36 AM by Tarrakk Blackhand.

03-23-2009 10:21 AM
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Xander
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Post: #45
RE: Artisan's Contest IV InputXander 03-23-2009

Tarrakk Blackhand Wrote:
Question for mods.....isn't there a link to a page somewhere on here that shows the past winners for GH's and Artisans? I'd like to see if I'm right in stating that GH was for figures and Artisan's was for models.

Go the the main website for the GH stuff.  For AC we have no single page showing winners.

Figures versus models? I am not sure what you mean.

As others have suggested, the artisan's contest was started as a contest that was supposed to emphasize non-modelling/painting.  I am of the opinion that it should stay that way.  If we want to do terrain or other model based stuff that should just be under Golden Hat, in my view.


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03-23-2009 02:01 PM
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Grimstonefire
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Post: #46
RE: Artisan's Contest IV InputGrimstonefire 03-23-2009

@Tarrakk
Having 5 or 6 different contests running seperately is much harder to administer and plan for than just 2.  

For instance, unless we ran several simultaneously it would be at least a year between the same type of contest.  Running them simultaneously means a lot more work for the staff to keep track of and plan ahead for.

It would be possible to broadly split all CDO competitions and ideas into 3 areas:

Hobby:
Golden Hat – Warhammer scale miniatures
‘Creative craziness’; Terrain Building, random objectives and models

Background:
Story Writing
Sketch Artist's

Rules:
Rules Writing
Tactics Guides

Now if you looked at these three areas and compare them to the CDO equivalent sections, it's clear IMO why we've had problems in the past, and why we need to sort this out.  The hobby section of CDO is probably at least twice as busy as the rules and background sections put together.

The problem with the Artisans as I see it is that we have so many potential areas that having the same structure and judging system for all of them is just impossible.

So if we do decide to stick to our planned competition calender for 2009, we'd have 3 slots to do *something*.

2009
JANUARY - GH #8 Opens
FEBRUARY - GH #8 Closes
MARCH - Artisans #4 Opens
APRIL - Artisans #4 Closes
MAY - GH #9 Opens
JUNE - GH #9 Closes
JULY - Artisans #5 Opens
AUGUST - Artisans #5 Closes
SEPTEMBER - GH #10 Opens
OCTOBER - GH #10 Closes
NOVEMBER - Artisans #6 Opens
DECEMBER - Artisans #6 Closes

We need to be realistic about how many people will enter each type, if we only have 3 opportunities a year we need to pick and choose carefully so we get the maximum number of entries.  Of the 5 possible areas above I would just stick to any combination of these three, doing the same set every year so it's clear:

'Creative craziness’; Terrain Building, random objectives and models
Story Writing
Rules Writing

I am still not convinced that we need actual competitions for these, but if enough people want to do it and they are prepared to judge them sensibly then I guess we roll with the majority.

Although I agree it is definately worth sorting this out now, unless we decide something soon we don't need to panic as the next slot is July.

You all realise btw that there is nothing to stop anyone from starting their own competitions.  Hypothetically if the staff were only responsible for administering the Golden Hats, the rest could be managed by you, our members.


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This post was last modified: 03-23-2009 04:23 PM by Grimstonefire.

03-23-2009 03:49 PM
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Tarrakk Blackhand
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Post: #47
RE: Artisan's Contest IV InputTarrakk Blackhand 03-23-2009

Grim,

Looking at your example above gives me an idea.

Jan-Feb - Golden Hat #8 - Warmachines (Finished) - Hobby
Mar-Apr - Background type contest
May-June - Rules type contest
July-August - Hobby type contest
Sept-Oct - Background type contest
Nov-Dec - Rules type contest

I don't know what you want to call those contests, but if all my ideas can be grouped into 3 main concepts, why not run it this way?

Xander Wrote:
Figures versus models? I am not sure what you mean.


Bad choice of words on my part. Both figures and models are MODELS. What I sould have written was Figures VS Non-Figure models. Figures for GH and non-figures for Artisans.

My reasoning? Last time I attempted to enter Artisan, it was under the theme "Design a Shrine to Hashut". This was either the big essay, the medium sized essay and diagrams or a model of the shrine. Maybe this is where my confusion came in as to it being a contest for Terrain and Buildings as I didn't get to see any previous Artisans.

However, GH's seem to be all about the figures from the Army List, including the Warmachines. All of those items were found on the RH PDF. If GH stays this way, that's fine because then GH is about Figures and there's so many on the PDF.

Now, if you're worried about the "figures" aspect of GH and running out of ideas, it's easy enough to start again from the begining of the list when you reach the end. Remeber that we keep getting new members and that not everyone has entered every GH, myself included. Actually, GH was #8, but the first contest I entered. That means I haven't built any of the subjects from GH#1-7. I'd like to if they came back for a 2nd round.

So just keep this in mind for future reference.


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This post was last modified: 03-24-2009 03:31 AM by Tarrakk Blackhand.

03-23-2009 05:44 PM
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Revlid
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Post: #48
RE: Artisan's Contest IV InputRevlid 03-23-2009

Tarrakk Blackhand Wrote:

revlid Wrote:
This is an input thread, not a put-down thread...


I think Willmark is wondering why there's hostility in the post.


Oh, I see.

That comment was directed at myself, no-one else, to signify that I didn't really have anything further to say beyond "I don't want x to happen" - a put-down.

That said, I see where you're coming from with the "lots of competitions" thing - I just have to wonder if splitting it into "Models" (whether that be regiments, monsters, characters, terrain, warmachines, dioramas, duels, Chaos Squats, banners or campaign tokens) and "Not Models" (stories, rules, art, fluff, drabbles, concepts, battle reports, tacticas) would be far simpler for the purposes of archiving, organisation, naming, etc. Each individual "Not Models" category will have fairly limited entrance as seperate competitions compared to "Models" as a whole.


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03-23-2009 07:09 PM
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Tarrakk Blackhand
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Post: #49
RE: Artisan's Contest IV InputTarrakk Blackhand 03-24-2009

Ok...fixed my above post. Hope this helps sort some things out. Forgive me if it's more confusion...it's 1:30 am here.


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03-24-2009 03:32 AM
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Thommy H
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Post: #50
RE: Artisan's Contest IV InputThommy H 03-24-2009

Quote:
That said, I see where you're coming from with the "lots of competitions" thing - I just have to wonder if splitting it into "Models" (whether that be regiments, monsters, characters, terrain, warmachines, dioramas, duels, Chaos Squats, banners or campaign tokens) and "Not Models" (stories, rules, art, fluff, drabbles, concepts, battle reports, tacticas) would be far simpler for the purposes of archiving, organisation, naming, etc. Each individual "Not Models" category will have fairly limited entrance as seperate competitions compared to "Models" as a whole.


Yeah, this is pretty much what I think should happen. My understanding of the Artisan's Contest was that it was supposed to be a competition for people who weren't so good at painting and modelling. Unfortunatley, the implementation of that aim has been pretty poor so far, with the organisers being reluctant to step entirely outside the concept of creating a model. So we've had weird hybrids where we pit descriptions of a terrain feature against actual models, with predictable results.

Even in this thread, I see real opposition (mostly from Staff) to doing a competition that doesn't involve models in any way, or an attempt to redefine what "modelling" means so it doesn't include terrain or what have you. Yes, I know it's harder to judge something that isn't a model, yes I know people are less likely to read a long-winded scenario or set of rules than they are to look at a picture and make a gut decision about it, but you gotta speculate to accumulate, you know? There's a lot of great content being produced on this website, and not all of it is going to go in the Word of Hashut or something. Some of the best models we've seen have been created because of the Golden Hat - it follows that a competition for unit rules, or fiction, or scenarios would produce the best examples of that.


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The Legion of Astragoth | The Dark Crusade of Mousillon | The Destroyer Cult | Les Défenseurs du Béniterre | Storm Over Béniterre | Force Belial

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This post was last modified: 03-24-2009 05:34 AM by Thommy H.

03-24-2009 05:33 AM
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Ubertechie
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Post: #51
RE: Artisan's Contest IV InputUbertechie 03-24-2009

Here Here - Thommy - exactly the sentiment I had been feeling - after all a fair percentage of us are gamers and it would be nice to have a competition that focussed on the other aspects of the hobby (i.e. what we do once we have made / painted those lovely models apart from drinking Cheers! )


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two_heads_talking
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Post: #52
RE: Artisan's Contest IV Inputtwo_heads_talking 03-24-2009

I like the idea of fiction and campaigns/scenariors. I'm not a big fan of the 'unit rules'. If long winded is the issue, then come up with a word max..  100 words, 250 words or something like that. I would hope that even the modelers would take the time to read and vote on these, as people that can't model or paint took the time to vote on those items, knowing that they'd never be able to win, so it only makes sense, the modeling/paint mongers should return the gratitude/kindness showed to them.

03-24-2009 08:21 AM
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Grimstonefire
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Post: #53
RE: Artisan's Contest IV InputGrimstonefire 03-24-2009

Rules can be a very tricky one to judge compared to models, the age old trade off of cool against balanced.  Something which you wouldn't see in the painting or writing competitions.


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03-24-2009 11:10 AM
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Tarrakk Blackhand
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Post: #54
RE: Artisan's Contest IV InputTarrakk Blackhand 03-24-2009

thommy H Wrote:
Even in this thread, I see real opposition (mostly from Staff) to doing a competition that doesn't involve models in any way, or an attempt to redefine what "modelling" means so it doesn't include terrain or what have you.


I don't think they're "opposing", per sey, but I think the problem lies in WHAT excatly should be done in a Writing Contest.


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03-24-2009 11:53 AM
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Willmark
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Post: #55
RE: Artisan's Contest IV InputWillmark 03-24-2009

I don't have strong feelings one way or the other Thommy per say, mainly I'm looking to get this moving. Happy




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03-24-2009 12:34 PM
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Thommy H
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Post: #56
RE: Artisan's Contest IV InputThommy H 03-24-2009

I wasn't suggesting strong feelings: just a general air of opposition to the concept. I know I've said this elsewhere, but I don't think the whole "it'll never work!" argument holds much water given how some of the previous Artisan's Contests have gone. We've told entrants to describe a hypothetical model before now - I think we can afford to take a risk and let people write some rules or fiction Wink


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03-24-2009 12:37 PM
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Willmark
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Post: #57
RE: Artisan's Contest IV InputWillmark 03-26-2009

OK I think this has run its course everyone. The Staff will look it over and we should have an announcement up shortly.




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03-26-2009 08:56 PM
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