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Artisan's Contest #4 - Feedback Discussion!
Author MessageArtisan's Contest #4 - Feedback Discussion!
Grimstonefire
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Artisan's Contest #4 - Feedback Discussion!Grimstonefire 05-03-2009



A reminder to start of what this phase of the competition is for:

I originally said there would be a 10 day period where we can all discuss the merits of each idea.  I am willing to keep this open until May 13th if you want, but I think we should stick to one week and start the actual voting on Monday 11th.

What the entrants need to do now:

To get things started, I think all the entrants should post a reply here saying what their inspiration was, how they see it playing in games etc.  Also to answer any questions that the rest of us have.

Reminder on how this will be judged

Part of the reason I was apprehensive about doing a rules based competition that was open to discussion is that if people identify areas where the rules are insufficient or unclear, people may not vote for them at all!

So to try and avoid this happening, and to ensure all entries can be judged fairly, we designed a list of categories that people should use to help them decide.  Note that we have listed all the things as being equally as important.

• Use of Language (is it professionally written?): /10
• Playability (are the rules streamlined?): /10
• Balance (are the rules and points fair and do they adhere to typical GW design?): /10
• Fun (do the rules make for a fun experience?): /10
• Lore (are the rules fluffy and do they fit the character of the Chaos Dwarfs?): /10

NOTE:  Playtesting feedback should not be something that will be judged.  Anyone can claim to have playtested things, and we are not all in a position to playtest at a moment's notice.

So if rules are not balanced, or are just plain wrong, it does not mean that people should not vote for it later.  People will just lose marks on the 'Playability' and 'Balance' areas.

Obviously anyone can vote how they want, but I think using this method is fairest to all.



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This post was last modified: 07-22-2009 01:26 PM by Xander.

05-03-2009 05:45 PM
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ryanamandaanna
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RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback Discussionryanamandaanna 05-03-2009

Mine was left off...  Sad





05-03-2009 06:15 PM
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Grimstonefire
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RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionGrimstonefire 05-03-2009

I will check the emails again Wink  Sorry about that.

Edit:  I've reloaded it with yours on.

I thought it was interesting that only one person did a special choice.


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This post was last modified: 05-03-2009 07:09 PM by Grimstonefire.

05-03-2009 06:35 PM
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Thommy H
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RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionThommy H 05-03-2009

There shouldn't be too much mystery about the inspiration for mine:


Serial Writist - lots and lots of short fiction, written by me, regularly updated.

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05-03-2009 06:42 PM
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ryanamandaanna
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RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback Discussionryanamandaanna 05-03-2009

Thanks Grim!

As for us posting about our entries, what would you like us to say?  Just talk about it some, or should we field some questions first and then answer them?





05-03-2009 11:27 PM
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Pyro Stick
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RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionPyro Stick 05-04-2009

Its obvious which entry is mine (not because it says my name beside it) as the rules are based on the old juggernaut rules i made a few years ago, which ive been meaning to update for a while. Ive never had a chance to playtest them and i wouldnt say im good at writing rules (im more into the painting side of warhammer) so i have no idea how well they will work.


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05-04-2009 05:38 AM
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Kera foehunter
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RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionKera foehunter 05-04-2009

great bunch of stuff guys


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05-04-2009 07:34 AM
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Revlid
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RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionRevlid 05-04-2009

My entry was based vaguely off of Grimstonefire's idea of a giant hammer/anvil channeling dark magic through the ground, while visually taking inspiration from mining drills and pistons.

In terms of in-game effect, it's most similar to the Anvil of Doom, albeit more warmachine-based.

I'm pretty pleased with the way it came out, although somewhat miffed to see I wasn't the only one with ideas about multiple firing modes... And it might be somewhat undercosted.

Contents of a tablet from the informal archives of the Daemonsmiths quarter of the Great Temple of Zharr-Naggrund, entitled “TTIT Days Since Last Misfire.”
Tested the new-named Molten Piston today. Results just as hoped, albeit rather less easy to direct than anticipated. Well is it said that the fire-rock children of Hashut are fickle and dangerous – one of the runes of servitude marking the boiler was seared beyond recognisability, resulting in an incident that returned Harrak to the ashes of our Father. He won’t be missed; the fool acted like an uppity beardling. The crew express similar sentiments, leading me to believe that Harrak’s trip was artificially induced. Not that I particularly care.
Note T: Check pressure valves Ak through Grik – Gharaz expressed concern over them during blacksmoke-direction.
Note TT: Punish Harrak for
Note TT: Punish Gorhuz for improper application of the third runelet of induction – I don’t care who his great-uncle is, we don’t need a repeat of the Diabolic Mangler incident.
Note TTI: Sacrifice eight slaves (Greenskin) to Hashut in thanks for a successful first venture.


Madness? THIS IS... Well, maybe it isn't Sparta, but it's still pretty awesome.
Would you kindly comment on my Warhammer Armies: Chaos Dwarfs?

This post was last modified: 05-04-2009 02:23 PM by Revlid.

05-04-2009 07:50 AM
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BilboBaggins
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RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionBilboBaggins 05-04-2009

Mine was created when I was in a bizarre mood. My theory is that Chaos Dwarfs still have some Dwarf tendencies. They would like reliable weapon over the more dangerous Daemonic Powered machines.

So what would a Chaos Dwarf Engineer do if he saw the Goblin Hewer on the battlefield.

He would watch it's effectiveness an then make something deadlier. But he wouldn't have a machine that throws axes Willy nilly, why not use a resource he had available, SNEAKY GITS. I'm figuring that Sneaky Gits would act like Goblins when presented a chance to fly. The O&G Doom Divers never has a shortage of volunteers to fly across the field, wouldn't their kin do the same thing? Heck Sneaky Gits would take pleasure crashing a glider into en enemy unit.

Since the two War Machines I've mentioned (Hewer and Doom Diver) are Rare choices and this machine is more powerful than both I couldn't justify it being anything other than a Rare Choice.


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05-04-2009 08:56 AM
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Skink
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RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionSkink 05-04-2009

Well, at the beginning I wanted to make a regiment of renown of warmachines, guided by a "famous Chaos Dwarf Gaoler". However, I wasn't able to make anything good so I dropped the idea!

Being honest I was pretty sure to find loads of rules for Ishkur's Shatterer Beast (beautiful model man Tongue Wink)... So i wanted to make something different. While I was deciding what to do I saw on the Warriors of Chaos armybook the insert where it is said that the Dawi Zharr can bind part of the Realm of Chaos in a piece of metal. I started to wonder how they can do that.

Also, I imagine the Darklands as an industrial wasteland, and the forges of the Dawi Zharr something more like factories.
The problem was: How can mortals approach a dangerous daemonic dimension without consequences to power an industrial produnction??? Here's where I started to think about the Hellgates!

However, the Immortals and the Daemonsith had Chaos Armours in my document. Hope you liked that Happy


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05-04-2009 09:54 AM
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ryanamandaanna
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RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback Discussionryanamandaanna 05-04-2009

I was attempting to create something that took advantage of both the magic and the technology of the chaos dwarfs.  Since Golems had never been introduced for WH, and I had heard some discussion here of how well they would fit with the CD fluff, I figured they would be ideal for pulling something.  

The magic resistance, flaming attacks, and stupidity were not in my initial concept, but as I thought about what they were made out of (essentially fire and whatever was laying around), it made sense to give them those advantages/disadvantages.

I tried my best to make it a balanced war machine/chariot with a fair point value.  Basically I was hoping that the average gamer could look at the unit and accept it without a second glance.

The unit strength 5 is huge for negating rank bonuses, etc., and when fully manned, the Flame Cart is essentially an extremely mobile unit of
Blunderbussers.  I couldn't see making it anything less than rare, due to the fact that Golems technically don't exist yet in the WH world.

I also like the idea of requiring a fire sorcerer to use it.  Helps it to make sense, ya know?  Wink

Great entries by everyone, btw.  Takes Hat off





05-04-2009 10:39 AM
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Thommy H
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RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionThommy H 05-04-2009

There's really no mystery to my entry. Since the design work was already done by the good people at Warhammer Online and Xander, all I had to do was take the concept and make it workable. I was captivated by the huge axle behind the barrels, and my vision of the machine firing was that it would spin 130 degrees, fire, spin again, fire, spin again, fire like a massive machine gun. Then I figured it could be "locked" and all three barrels fired together and finally spun much faster to just fill the sky with fury. I think it's easy to picture those three firing modes when you look at the model, which always helps when designing rules - you have to have a coherent image of what you want to represent.

I was slightly limited because the rules of this contest precluded me from making it follow the monster and handlers rules as per the Hellcannon, so there had to be an excuse for why it just functioned like a normal war machine, but thankfully the whole "three Daemons" thing allowed me to come up with that fairly easily. The actual firing rules were really easy - the basic mode is just the logical way to do a three-fold shot, and the increased chance of Misfire that comes from resolving three shots means it's as dangerous as it should be. The "Blast" mode was also simple, and inspired by the best result you can get on the Hellcannon misfire chart. I had to make it a) more dangerous and b) only usable every other turn for balance because otherwise you'd just use it every time! The final mode was the hardest to figure out and there were a couple of different versions before I hit on using the Misfire dice to determine the number of shots. Again, that gave using it some inherent risk.

The misfire chart is a bit special because it has results for 0 and -1, because of the special rule when using the Blast mode. I wanted to have the chart fit the background, which says that it's safer than the Hellcannon in some ways (it's inherently more stable because the Daemons fight each other), but if something goes wrong, it's so much worse. So the better results are really pretty okay (the same as a normal stone thrower, really), but it gets really really bad as you move down the chart. The worst result can potentially vaporise much of your army!

Points cost is always hard. I really just worked out the price of the model first as a stone thrower with the more powerful shot (Strength 5/10) then added a cost I felt was fair for what amounted to two more stone throwers bolted on! I assumed the different modes were all about as good as each other, so you don't pay any extra for them. Obviously, it had to be a Rare choice too, since the Hellcannon is in the Warriors of Chaos army, and this is a bigger, better version of that.


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05-04-2009 11:02 AM
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Revlid
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RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionRevlid 05-04-2009

Hashut's Doom Launcher
An amusing concept. The character's name isn't very Dwarfen or Chaos Dwarfen, though, and the rules for Sneaky Gits are a bit odd (surely it would be better to have a set amount defending the warmachine, and an effectively infinite number for firing). Also, the firing rules appear to have been cribbed entirely from the Goblin-Hewer, but with the hits doubled for some reason. Mind you, the point cost seems fine.

* By "two-handed weapon" for Spanners, do you mean "Great weapon"?
* Being Immune to Psychology does not affect Stubborn - there is no need to specify otherwise.

Brass Claws of Hashut
I like this concept a lot. Semi-mechanical warshells alternately stumblings, clanking and pouncing their way across the battlefield, accompanied by a daemonsmith "handler" - really cool stuff. The execution, however, could use some work. After several read-throughs, this is my interepretation:
1. There is one Engineer. He is bought alongside up to 5 drones, but these drones are not "active" when the battle begins.
2. Instead, any number of drones may be "activated" at the start of each turn with a successful leadership test, after which they just wander around like weaker, slower chaos spawn.

Am I right? If so, this seems a bit overcomplicated, and a huge hassle for getting up to 5 rather weak models onto the battlefield for 20pts each - especially given that the Engineer has one wound and no defense against shooting.

* How are the bindings of the drones dispelled?
* The drones are 20pts, but how much does the Engineer cost?
* What leadership value do drones use?

Chaos Dwarf Juggernaut
I'm sorry, but I would never use this, just because I hate Boar Centaurs, Dwarfs of Chaos being lumped in with Chaos Dwarfs, and to avoid having to deal with the crew - it should just be a super-chariot, with a combined profile, surely? This... this seems monstrously complicated, so I'm just going to step away.

The Molten Piston
Perfect, of course. Takes Hat off Although perhaps undercosted.

Flame Cart
A flame-belching chariot, pulled by golems who are also on fire? Sign me up! I don't really like the name, but the rules seem quite clear and simple, although I'm not sure what the Slave Masters rule is - was it dropped? The Flame Belchers could be simplified to a Breath weapon, but the Blunderbuss rules work fine too.
My only real gripe is that, for a 5 wound fear causing chariot with a 3+ Save, a powerful ranged attack and big hitting power even after the charge, the Flame Cart seems very undercosted. Even considering the relatively low movement for a chariot, and the stupidity (on Ld9, mind) - this thing's a tank!
Oh, and surely the Golems should be immune to flaming attacks, too?

Chaos Dwarf Hellgate
Interesting. Quite Dark Eldar, and (I think?) Grimstonefire inspired. I essentially imagine a more steampunky/babylonian version of this.
* The daemonsmith's stats seem rather odd. WS5, 2A, combat equipment, but only S3?
* Option 3, while cool, doesn't work - the Magic Phase comes before the Shooting Phase, not after. Also, a mechanic more along the lines of forcing friendly casters to use an additional "free" Power Dice, like a Dragon Mage, would work better for the effect you're going for, rather than just handing them an extra dice.
* Option 2, I assume, doesn't affect the Hellgate itself?
* Option 1 is cool.
For 1, what if that unit has already taken a Terror test this game? What if this result has been rolled before? Surely it'll have no effect? Perhaps a Panic Test would be better.
For 2-5, a Panic test would also be better than Terror. Otherwise fine.
* While I like the idea of rampant daemons running amok, I think you would have been better using "generic daemon" stats, as opposed to positing the existence of mechanical daemons and greater daemons of Hashut.
* The bodyguard rule is overcomplicated, and implies that the Hellgate can be fired in Close Combat, too. Why not just say that, when in combat, the Daemonsmith is always placed in the second rank if possible?

I'm aware that I've put down the most issues for this one, but this is actually my favourite entry.

Daemonhammer Cannon
A case of parallel evolution with Ereshkigal-Namtar, methinks. Wink
In any case, I like the Daemonhammer Cannon, even if it does contribute to the absurdly high number of "multiple modes of fire" entries. My issues are several.
* It seems a little undercosted for what it can do.
* The Daemonic Blast mode of fire is horribly underpowered except maybe against Siege Towers, which aren't exactly common.
* The Daemonsmith's ability to re-roll up to three Misfires in one turn is, frankly, without equal in the current game and therefore pretty overpowered for someone who isn't a special character.

Triple-barreled is cool, and Daemonic Barrage is a nice switch-up, and the rest is all Hellcannon, so it's gravy.


Madness? THIS IS... Well, maybe it isn't Sparta, but it's still pretty awesome.
Would you kindly comment on my Warhammer Armies: Chaos Dwarfs?

This post was last modified: 05-04-2009 02:22 PM by Revlid.

05-04-2009 01:25 PM
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BilboBaggins
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RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionBilboBaggins 05-04-2009

Two handed weapons are Halbards.
It was my belief that normally ITP would overrule stubborn unless stated otherwise in special rules.


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This post was last modified: 05-04-2009 01:40 PM by BilboBaggins.

05-04-2009 01:38 PM
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ryanamandaanna
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RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback Discussionryanamandaanna 05-04-2009

Slavemasters is just the common Chaos Dwarf rule of not panicking from greenskins.  Wink





05-04-2009 01:44 PM
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Thommy H
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RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionThommy H 05-04-2009

Quote:
The Daemonsmith's ability to re-roll up to three Misfires in one turn is, frankly, without equal in the current game and therefore pretty overpowered for someone who isn't a special character.


Is there anything else in the game that rolls the Artillery dice three times (or more, potentially...) per shot? The idea is that he can re-roll the Artillery dice once every time it shows a Misfire. He can't just keep re-rolling Misfires.

If you imagine you're using different dice every time you roll the Artillery dice it makes more sense. It's the same as Hatred re-rolling all Attacks, for example. The point is, the Daemonhammer would last about one turn if you didn't get the chance to avoid Misfires!


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05-04-2009 01:56 PM
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Revlid
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RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionRevlid 05-04-2009

BilboBaggins Wrote:
It was my belief that normally ITP would overrule stubborn unless stated otherwise in special rules.


In 6th Edition, this would be true, as would ItP's overruling of Hatred and Frenzy.

In 7th Edition, however, ItP was simplified to being immune to Panic, Fear, and Terror.

The point is, the Daemonhammer would last about one turn if you didn't get the chance to avoid Misfires!

...True.
I'd still feel more comfortable if he were a named character. Besides, with only one re-roll, you'd have to roll more than one Misfire a turn (a 1-in-3 chance) in order to Misfire... Hrrm. Maybe D3 re-rolls a turn? I don't know.


Madness? THIS IS... Well, maybe it isn't Sparta, but it's still pretty awesome.
Would you kindly comment on my Warhammer Armies: Chaos Dwarfs?
05-04-2009 02:33 PM
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Thommy H
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RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionThommy H 05-04-2009

You can still roll a Misfire again... It's just a re-roll and you have to stand by the second result, as with all re-rolls. You get one per Artillery dice. So if you roll three Artillery dice (for example, when using the normal firing method) you can re-roll each of them just once, should they turn up Misfires. You can't re-roll three times or something.

And he kind of is a named character - he's probably the guy who invented it (I forget what I called him), but since this thing could have been invented hundreds of years ago (and re-built several times, most likely) he's possibly been replaced by an heir now. I'm not sure why it matters anyway, since his special ability is dependent entirely on context: I wouldn't expect him to have multiple Artillery dice re-rolls if, hypothetically, he was crewing an Earthshaker or something. It's just that you throw the damn thing so much with the Daemonhammer that you need to have the ability to re-roll it be actually useful.


Serial Writist - lots and lots of short fiction, written by me, regularly updated.

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The Legion of Astragoth | The Dark Crusade of Mousillon | The Destroyer Cult | Les Défenseurs du Béniterre | Storm Over Béniterre | Force Belial

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Chaos Dwarfs Warscroll Compendium


05-04-2009 02:41 PM
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RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback Discussionryanamandaanna 05-04-2009

It would make more sense to make him like Teclis IMO.  Just let him reroll the first misfire of each turn.





05-04-2009 02:47 PM
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Thommy H
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RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionThommy H 05-04-2009

Which is fine if you aren't rolling the Artillery dice three times in most cases. Also, you do have to pay for the Daemonsmith upgrade.


Serial Writist - lots and lots of short fiction, written by me, regularly updated.

My models:
The Legion of Astragoth | The Dark Crusade of Mousillon | The Destroyer Cult | Les Défenseurs du Béniterre | Storm Over Béniterre | Force Belial

My rules:
Chaos Dwarfs Warscroll Compendium


05-04-2009 02:49 PM
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