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Artisan's Contest #4 - Feedback Discussion!
Author MessageArtisan's Contest #4 - Feedback Discussion!
ryanamandaanna
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Post: #21
RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback Discussionryanamandaanna 05-04-2009

meh... edited so no one gets upset about my opinion.





This post was last modified: 05-04-2009 05:02 PM by ryanamandaanna.

05-04-2009 02:50 PM
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BilboBaggins
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Post: #22
RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionBilboBaggins 05-04-2009

Thommy H Wrote:
Is there anything else in the game that rolls the Artillery dice three times (or more, potentially...) per shot?


Can you say Helblaster? And they cannot re-roll misfires ever.


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05-04-2009 03:45 PM
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Grimstonefire
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Post: #23
RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionGrimstonefire 05-04-2009

My thoughts on the first two:

Hashut’s Doom Launcher:
- Clarify if Alexandr part of the crew, so he can operate the machine?
- How many Sneaky Gits are there?  Need to know for ranking up in combat.
- Clarify what a two handed weapon is (you answered that one already)

Overall:
Fluff is good, bringing in a named crew member is nice.  The comedy factor is very high, so bonus points for that. Happy  Point’s cost is hard to judge for this one, as it could potentially be overpowered against the massed ranks of night goblins for instance (as you didn’t put an upper limit on the potential number ranks).  I might have been tempted to limit this one more based on this.  Also make the other crew WS4.

Brass Claws of Hashut
- Ballistic Skill 0 is a bit harsh for the engineer.
- “If the drone is within 8” of an enemy unit, it will charge it.”  Would this get confusing with a D6” x 2 charge range?  Maybe I’m just over complicating that.
- Immune to missile fire is a bit overpowered imo.  I would probably just say a -2 to hit modifier against missile weapons, or a 4+ ward save against all missile fire (excluding magic missiles).

Overall:
As a warmachine this is completely unique in the system of warhammer as far as I know.  A multiple ranged combat war machine/ monster, with only one ‘crew’.  As such, you need a lot more rules to describe what happens to these if the daemon engineer is killed or flees the battlefield.

The nearest I can figure this is actually a creature creator, but the monster and handler rules don’t seem appropriate?  It’s possibly more like a necromancer summoning using the Raise Dead spell?  Something to think about.  You might need to clarify the victory points against the drones, seeing as they have delayed deployment.


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This post was last modified: 05-04-2009 03:50 PM by Grimstonefire.

05-04-2009 03:47 PM
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BilboBaggins
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Post: #24
RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionBilboBaggins 05-04-2009

Grimstonefire Wrote:
My thoughts on the first two:

Hashut’s Doom Launcher:
- Clarify if Alexandr part of the crew, so he can operate the machine?
- How many Sneaky Gits are there?  Need to know for ranking up in combat.
- Clarify what a two handed weapon is (you answered that one already)

Overall:
Fluff is good, bringing in a named crew member is nice.  The comedy factor is very high, so bonus points for that. Happy  Point’s cost is hard to judge for this one, as it could potentially be overpowered against the massed ranks of night goblins for instance (as you didn’t put an upper limit on the potential number ranks).  I might have been tempted to limit this one more based on this.  Also make the other crew WS4.


Alexandr is the Engineer so is part of crew and can use his BS when shooting (didn't I explain that in the rules?) The reason for his name is that he fits in my Chaos Dwarf army which the characters are Russian style names.

There are unlimited Sneaky Gits (if in combat you have 2 in front rank and 5 in second rank in a normal 5 wide combat setup. They will get a +1 CR for ranking in combat. Yes, I know skirmishers don't rank except for beastmen and these guys. The reasoning for unlimited is like the Doom Diver for O&G, they are all trying to have their turn flying. I used Sneaky Gits because Chaos Dwarfs do not trust Common Goblins since the Black Orc Rebellion.

I was figuring 60 extra points for D6 hits per rank instead of D3 of the Hewer would be a good start.

The hewer has no upper level of ranks either.

I may have under pointed it slightly. But I figure it's going to be a Cannonball, Bolt Thrower, Magic Missile target anyway. Happy


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This post was last modified: 05-04-2009 04:06 PM by BilboBaggins.

05-04-2009 04:05 PM
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Thommy H
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Post: #25
RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionThommy H 05-04-2009

Is the voting supposed to be public? My feeling is that that won't be a good idea. Discussion is fine, but I don't react well to "8/10" for Use of Language, know what I mean? I can see this getting personal if we can all read the scores.


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05-04-2009 04:06 PM
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ryanamandaanna
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Post: #26
RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback Discussionryanamandaanna 05-04-2009

didn't mean anything personal by it, Thommy.  As far as use of the english language, I thought everyone did great.  I was just trying to visualize the typical GW entry in an army book.

Seriously, everyone did great on this.  Cheers!





05-04-2009 04:09 PM
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Thommy H
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Post: #27
RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionThommy H 05-04-2009

I know, I was just thinking that it might not be a great idea to do it publicly. I'm not completely comfortable grading everyone in this thread - I'm happy to give comments (which I will do soon), but I don't like to pass judgement in a place where the people I'm judging can read it. It seems unfair.

Anyway, back to this Daemonsmith thing:

Quote:
Can you say Helblaster? And they cannot re-roll misfires ever.


But does a Hellblaster have to roll on the Misfire table every time it rolls a Misfire? I assume it works more like a cannon. I could be wrong.

The point is, if you're rolling three Artillery dice, and any result of a Misfire means rolling on the chart, that means you have a 50% chance of misfiring, and the thing potentially exploding. A Daemonhammer, without any re-rolls, would last two turns before something goes wrong, on average. That would make it almost completely useless.

Remember, the Daemonsmith's ability to re-roll Misfires isn't just some random buff he has: it's dependent on the way the Daemonhammer functions. You roll the Artillery dice a lot, and any result of a Misfire is bad news. In the basic firing mode, you're effectively shooting three stone throwers at once - it's ridiculously risky. He can only re-roll each dice once, not one dice multiple times or anything. It's like you have three Grudge Throwers each with the Rune of Forging (right? Is that the one that means you can re-roll the Artillery dice?) on them...they just happen to be welded together.


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05-04-2009 04:37 PM
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Grimstonefire
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Post: #28
RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionGrimstonefire 05-04-2009

People can grade however they want.  The actual voting will be done by a public poll as we normally do with GH.  The difference this time of course that people happen to know which entry belongs to which person.


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05-04-2009 04:57 PM
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BilboBaggins
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Post: #29
RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionBilboBaggins 05-04-2009

I think I got the misfire chart right, it's been a while since I used a Helblaster in a game. If the Helblaster rolls a misfire on the first roll (of it's three rolls of artillary dice) you roll on the chart on a roll of 1-2 Boom no more rolls, 3 can't fire this or next turn, 4 can't fire remaining barrels but can fire next turn, 5 roll for next barrel and 6 that and all remaining barrels fire. So rolling a 5 on the chart you roll the artillary die again so you can (but odds are rare) roll 3 misfires a turn.


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05-04-2009 05:02 PM
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Thommy H
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Post: #30
RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionThommy H 05-04-2009

Yeah, well you can roll three Misfires in a turn for the Daemonhammer too - but the odds are against it (if you have a Daemonsmith, that is...). And with the Barrage method of firing, there's technically no limit on how many times you might end up rolling the Artillery dice - and the Misfire results are cumulative. Those re-rolls won't seem unbalanced then!

I think it's important to remember that you have to abide by whatever the second roll shows - you can still roll another Misfire. A re-roll is no guarantee of avoiding hilarious explosions.


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05-04-2009 05:16 PM
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Thommy H
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Post: #31
RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionThommy H 05-04-2009

Anyway, here are my thoughts on the entries:

Hashut's Doom Launcher

It took me a little while to "get" this one. I'm not 100% on the concept, and the humour seems a little out of touch with the modern game. I also feel like the creator of it not liking Daemonic war machines comes across as kind of an excuse (not that I can talk, given my own entry...) to create something that doesn't fit that well with the current version of Chaos Dwarfs (such as they are). Why is it Hashut's Doom Launcher anyway?

All that said, I think the rules are pretty nice. I had to read the thing about the D6 hits per ranks a couple of times, but I think I quite like it now - I like how it's thematically similar to how blunderbusses work (bigger units take more hits). And, it must be said, the way the Sneaky Gitz work is very elegant. I like the idea that there's just "lots of them".

Brass Claws of Hashut

Like Grim said, it's really hard to grade this entry! I don't know of anything like it in the game, but I do like the idea, and the image of these mechanical insectoid things scurrying across the battlefield is quite a captivating one, unlike anything currently around in Warhammer.

The rules seem to work, but I believe they could be a lot more streamlined. The test to activate seems unnecessary, and I agree with Grim that immunity to all missile fire is probably quite unbalanced (though I can't actually deny the logic of it).

Chaos Dwarf Juggernaut

This one has to be judged in context: it's from a different era of Chaos Dwarfs, so I won't dock points for it not fitting with the modern game. I like the idea, it has a precedent (because the model existed) and it doesn't require any leap of imagination to visualise.

What I like about it is it's simplicity - it looks complex, but actually it's a pretty basic idea: it's a big thing that does impact hits, and carries a couple of cannons. Can't argue with that. My only concern is that it's kind of cheap given that it has those two cannons.

The Molten Prison

Like the Doom Launcher, this was one I had to read a couple of times to properly understand. I like the idea of it, but it's probably just a touch too steampunk for my tastes. Obviously Revlid has his own strong ideas of what a Chaos Dwarf army should look like, so I can't fault it for being a bit "out there", and I like the way it's described - it's the most evocative entry in terms of description.

The rules seem relatively simple and not too powerful. I'm curious about how it "shoots" though - is it like a stone thrower? Does it guess range? I think it would be cooler if it worked that way, because then the unusual "attacks" (one of which is defensive) would seem all the more novel. I'm very captivated by the idea of a war machine that grants benefits to the things it hits now.

Flame Cart

I'm not totally convinced by the fluff for this one. It seems a little strange that Chaos Dwarfs can build huge flame cannons and animate golems from any rubbish they find on the floor, but they can't make a machine that drives itself? It has to be a cart? It's like using the internal combustion engine to wash dishes.

The rules seem okay though. If I understand it right, it's essentially a unit of Blunderbusses that gets pulled around, yeah? I think the way it shoots needs to be clarified. What does an "arc of flame" mean exactly? Does it fire in a curve or something? It's very simple and seems quite balanced but I think it could stand to be a bit more exciting actually. I like the thing about the fire Sorcerer though.

Chaos Dwarf Hellgate

Very interesting idea. Like the Brass Claws, it's very unique and provides something that is visually completely new. A giant portal spitting out Daemons and such is quite impressive, although it doesn't fit "my" idea of Chaos Dwarfs to be honest.

The rules seem a little complex to me. And why roll a D6 when you could just roll the Artillery dice to see if it Misfires? Isn't that what's it's for? One thing too: a Terror test is no different from a Fear test, except you can only take it once. Is this intentional? It makes that effect useless after the first time, and since it's random, this would seem to be quite a disadvantage. It should probably be Panic instead (and the same with the stone thrower effect - also, what happens if you roll a Misfire then?). I worry that there's a bit of overlap with the effects too - having both an option for three modes and the first mode having three different possible effects seems odd, and I'm not convinced there's a thematic link between them all. "Lava Daemons" seems very similar to "Mortal's flesh!" for example, in terms of what's supposed to happen. Why is one an option in itself and the other something that happens 1/6th of the time when you pick a different option?


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05-04-2009 05:53 PM
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Revlid
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Post: #32
RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionRevlid 05-04-2009

Thommy H Wrote:
Is the voting supposed to be public? My feeling is that that won't be a good idea. Discussion is fine, but I don't react well to "8/10" for Use of Language, know what I mean? I can see this getting personal if we can all read the scores.


You got upset over 8/10?

Well, I've already thrown my harshest criticisms into the ring, so I guess I'll have a go at scoring them...
I guess I'm currently voting for the Chaos Dwarf Hellgate, with the Daemonhammer a close second and the Flame Cart coming in a tight third.

Hashut's Doom Launcher:  37/50
Use of Language: 8/10
The explanation of the Launcher's origins was well-written, but was let down a bit things relating to Sneaky Gits (both rules and fluff).

Playability: 7/10
Again, it's just the Sneaky Gits that let this thing down - they're confusing. Otherwise, good.

Balance: 7/10
It's twice as powerful as the Goblin-Hewer, and harder to hurt thanks to the respawning Gits, but doesn't cost that much more.

Fun: 8/10
It's a pretty fun idea, would be fun to model, and would certainly be of use on the table. Well done.

Lore: 7/10
It's a bit too comedyhammer for my tastes, and I can't really imagine Sneaky Gits (supposedly smarter than your average greenskin) giving into a suicidal urge to emulate the Wright Brothers. Also, the engineer's name isn't a Chaos Dwarf name. It's like calling an Imperial engineer Chandra Shekhar - it's a different culture. That said, it is quite fun.


Brass Claws of Hashut:  39/50
Use of Language: 8/10
Well-written opening fluff, the rules were initially a bit unclear - some clarification on how the whole thing worked would have been nice.

Playability: 6/10
The rules are fairly open to debate, and involve lots of scatter-dice and random movement (Spore Mine/6th Ed Squig Hopper flashbacks! Aargh!)

Balance: 7/10
Fair but odd, and I still don't know how much the Engineer costs.

Fun: 8/10
Has the potential to be fun, and will definitely look interesting on the battlefield.  Big Grin

Lore: 10/10
I really, really like the imagery of this unit. I can't emphasise that enough. Really. I'll be cribbing this, along with the Hellgate.


Chaos Dwarf Juggernaut:  38/50
Use of Language: 8/10
A good, straightforward description was undermined by a few minor ruleswriting gaffes (the cannons can't fire twice each, can they?), and the use of words like "creepy".

Playability: 8/10
Ehh. It took me few read-throughs to get it, but I guess it'd be pretty easy to use once you got it on the table.

Balance: 5/10
Wow. Uh. You could probably do with a higher points cost.

Fun: 8/10
It would be fun to field, even if it would attract all firepower like giants do.  Big Grin

Lore: 9/10
It already exists, so how can I judge? But I am docking you a point for the Boar Centaur. I hate them. And the defecting Dwarf, that's just weird.


The Flame Cart:  40.5/50
Use of Language: 7/10
I love the basic concept, but have no idea what the Flame Cart, or the Golems, actually look like. The Flame Belcher's rules initially looked a bit convoluted, but a second look proves that's not the case.

Playability: 9/10
Almost no flaws or complicated moments in implementation, except that I don't know whether the Flame Belcher lets them move-and-shoot. Also, this thing is going to be pretty damn huge - I laid out six 40mm bases to get an idea of how big a base size it covers, and it isn't pretty.

Balance: 7/10
The sheer POWAH of the thing (it's a flaming, scythed, fear-causing, Ogre-pulled, 5 wound chariot with a heavy armour save and a decent missile attack) is balanced by its Stupidity and size, but it's still undercosted.

Fun: 8.5/10
The cool factor is strong in this one.

Lore: 9/10
This is something I could see used in an actual army book.


Chaos Dwarf Hellgate  42/50
Use of Language: 8/10
Off in places, but the fluff really gives you a feel for the Hellgate itself, and why it is what it is.

Playability: 6/10
The daemons, the random abilities, and the general complications all conspire to make this hard to actually use without consulting your rulebook every five minutes - a bit of shame, really.

Balance: 8/10
High power, high points. The green-fire equivalent/Bull Centaur generator is the only one I have a problem with, as the models created are unreasonably strong. The only equivalent spells create Horrors (goblin stats - crap) and Nurglings (literal crap).

Fun: 10/10
This could be a really fun, if a little random, experience.

Lore: 10/10
I really like the concept of this war machine. I'll be stealing this idea for later, I think.


Daemonhammer Cannon  41/50
Use of Language: 9/10
The concept and reasoning was brought across well, and there are very few extraneous words in the ruling.

Playability: 7/10
Tough to keep track of all the rules, I guess, but still fairly simple beyond that.

Balance: 7/10
I still don't like the re-rolls, no matter how necessary they may be, and the Daemonic Blast is underpowered to the point of Fail. It also seems a bit cheap.

Fun: 8/10
A rampagingless Hellcannon, but with some cool new firing modes!

Lore: 10/10
W:AR, the Hellcannon, and Ereshkigal-Namtar all conspire to make this an entirely plausible and very cool warmachine.

This post was last modified: 05-04-2009 05:59 PM by Revlid.

05-04-2009 05:53 PM
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Skink
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Post: #33
RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionSkink 05-04-2009

Whoa, ok...

The Daemonsmith's stats are a bit odd i know. However, I wanted to make something different from the Immortals. Strenght 3 maybe could be justified because he is a technician rather than a fighter. Also, I think that his batte equipment reflect his occupation. I mean, I think that a smith should wear his best armor, loads of pistols and.... Well, I can see him shooting behind his shield Big Grin

option 2 doesn't affect the hellgate

The rules for terror are applied normally. If a unit has already passed a terror test then it shouldn't make it once again. Anyway, the panic test is a good proposal. Can i follow your advice sir?

Aye, the bodyguard rules are a bit complicated.  Maybe he can be kept in the second rank as suggested. Than the cost of the warmachine can be lowed (it can't fire anymore in close combat, a weird think in warhammer)

Thanks for the suggestions! And thanks for the support Cheers!


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05-04-2009 05:56 PM
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Thommy H
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Post: #34
RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionThommy H 05-04-2009

Quote:
You got upset over 8/10?


Yep. I'm a really good writer. If you think my entry is written badly, you're reading it wrong.


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05-04-2009 05:59 PM
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BilboBaggins
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Post: #35
RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionBilboBaggins 05-04-2009

Why does it seem that I'm getting marked down because I gave my Engineer a Russian Name? The photos GW had of the Chaos Dwarfs were in Soviet Era Russia, and my army color scheme is Pre-Revolution Russia. What would have been a good name to use for the Engineer?


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05-04-2009 06:57 PM
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GRNDL
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Post: #36
RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionGRNDL 05-04-2009

re: Brass Claws of Hashut

The main idea behind this unit was to disrupt the enemy and tip the scales of the user's strategy rather than win the game by itself.  Something that the opponent wouldn't make a top priority and yet couldn't ignore entirely. The drones would wander randomly, intercept charges and even in some cases, add a flanking attack to embattled units.  They might buy time, open up opportunities or just get in the way. They can't be relied upon, but can't be effectively ignored, I felt like they added an interesting strategic element in the form of a changing battlefield.

The reason for immunity to missile fire was to enable the drones to survive an mass shooting and also to make players who really DID need to get rid of them, to commit to something they might not ordinarily use - magic. The idea of making a general choose between targeting one drone with a spell, so they could pull off their charging strategy, was an interesting one to me. What is the cost of you executing your plan, what would that be worth? Perhaps this idea could have been reinforced by the idea of spells being cast near the drones are dispelled, but I felt that would have attracted too much attention to the drones and then they wouldn't last long enough for their other rules to do their thing - they'd just be lightning rods for magic.

Where the idea needs more work, IMO, is the balance between how long they last versus how useful they are. The limited number of drones means that the user has to balance how useful he believes the drones are going to be, or can he save them till he gets closer to the enemy, but then have limited time to make use of them.  This also contributed to the points cost dilemma - how much is a variably useful unit worth? A high cost with low reliability will result in not many (if any) players taking them. A low cost with a high potency (strategically speaking) is unbalanced, or becomes exploitative.  Higher cost, high reliability means that it is too useful, perhaps forcing enemy players to get rid of them ASAP, thus denying them the chance of living up to their function.

The Engineer himself was not to provide a useful character, as much provide a focal point for the drones themselves. He's not a steadfast character, so he needs the protection of the army and care of the player so he can be positioned properly. The drones are the focus. Presumably, common sense says that if he is killed, the drones cannot be animated. The engineer costs nothing and begets the enemy nothing if killed, however, one could argue that the "unsummoned" drones would be worth victory points.  The grey area surrounding this is an issue, I admit. Lost points to the user, for sure, but doubtful if they would contribute to the opposing player's victory points. If they don't show up, they aren't really combatants are they?

The inspiration actually came from squig hoppers, as I was upset when their randomness was removed from the game. I restricted the unit size to keep the scatter dice use under control. Also, the temporary nature of the drones and the "summoning" aspect helps, IMHO.  I suppose this angle on the rules is probably more for the hobbyist with time to spare, rather than the tournament player where results need to be gotten fast.  The original idea came about as I was making my GH 7 entry, using Hobbos instead of daemons, with the engineer sealing the hobbos into the drones and as the pilots drove their weapons of war toward the enemy, the engineer would light a fuse unspooling from the back of the drone. The design of the drone would be brass spheres with mechanical weapons and arms, but ultimately bomb-like.  But since many peeps dislike the use of hobbos in their CD armies, I re-focused it to a more modern CD daemonsmith theme.


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05-04-2009 07:52 PM
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GRNDL
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Post: #37
RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionGRNDL 05-04-2009

I haven't had time nor the energy to think about everyone else's entry yet, but I celebrate everyone on their discussion of the ideas behind the entries. It is very thought provoking and has definitely brought forth several points I hadn't considered while making my entry, nor while I was reading others.

One hopes that the ideas behind the entries don't become flensed masses of mutilated flesh by the end of the discussion period with every facet of their creation hacked apart for the purposes of balance and fluff, etc. Happy


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05-04-2009 07:56 PM
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Thommy H
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Post: #38
RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionThommy H 05-05-2009

I don't want to labour this whole point too much (okay, maybe I do) but I don't want to get marked down for a percieved imbalance that I don't think exists, so I did a bit of number crunching last night. Okay, I'll go step by step.

Step 1: What are the chances of rolling a Misfire with the Daemonhammer?

Well, the Artillery dice is just a D6 with one face showing "misfire", so the basic chance of ever rolling a Misfire is a simple 1 in 6. But in the Daemonhammer's basic fire mode, you roll the Artillery dice three times. So, we have to add the odds up to figure out the chances of rolling at least one Misfire:

1/6 + 1/6 + 1/6 = 3/6 = 1/2

So, the chances of the thing Misfiring are 1/2 or 50%. Quite dangerous, as you can see.

Step 2: What's the deal with re-rolls?

Re-rolling is interetsing, speaking in terms of probability. It can get quite complex if you need to get a certain value or higher, but if we stick with the Artillery dice, it's pretty simple. Because you can only re-roll a Misfire, the only situation you'd ever actually get a misfire is if you rolled Misfire once, re-rolled it, and got Misfire again. So, effectively, it's the same statistical chance as rolling a double on 2D6, which is 1/6 x 1/6 = 1/36.

So, with a re-roll, your chance of getting a Misfire drops to 1/36, as opposed to a flat 1/6 if you're rolling one Artillery dice. That means that the ability to re-roll an Artillery dice in the event of a Misfire reduces your chances of rolling a Misfire by six times. That's very significant, as we shall see.

Step 3: Three re-rolls?

So, let's put it all together. The chance of rolling a Misfire with a re-roll is 1/36, but we're rolling three times, so we just repeat Step 1 with the new probabilities:

1/36 + 1/36 + 1/36 = 3/36 = 1/12

So, a 1 in 12 chance of getting a Misfire with re-rolls. Not only is that still fairly high, but it's a higher chance of rolling one than with a single re-roll of a single Artillery dice (an ability granted by a basic Engineering Rune for Dwarfs, which I believe costs 25 points). But, more significantly, 1/12 is six times less likely than 1/2, the basic chance of rolling a Misfire on three Artillery dice.

What does that mean? Well, it means that being able to re-roll three Artillery dice is no better, comparatively, as being able to re-roll one Artillery dice. Just look at the odds:

One dice: 1 in 6 vs. 1 in 36 (6 times less chance of Misfire)
Three dice: 1 in 2 vs. 1 in 12 (6 times less chance of Misfire).

It's a buff of exactly the same value. What's more, because the number of re-rolls is tied to the number of dice, it scales up and down with the different modes that require less or possibly more rolls of the Artillery dice. In fact though, and I concede this point, a Daemonsmith should cost more - he should be 35 points (10 for being a Champion, 25 for reducing the chances of Misfire), so I'm out by 5 there.


Okay, I know that was boring and annoying, but I want you guys to know that I did think about this. It's not a pointless, unjustified, overpowered ability: it's exactly the same as a single re-roll, you just get a few because you're rolling more dice.


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05-05-2009 04:30 AM
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Pyro Stick
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Post: #39
RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionPyro Stick 05-05-2009

Thommy H Wrote:
Chaos Dwarf Juggernaut

This one has to be judged in context: it's from a different era of Chaos Dwarfs, so I won't dock points for it not fitting with the modern game. I like the idea, it has a precedent (because the model existed) and it doesn't require any leap of imagination to visualise.

What I like about it is it's simplicity - it looks complex, but actually it's a pretty basic idea: it's a big thing that does impact hits, and carries a couple of cannons. Can't argue with that. My only concern is that it's kind of cheap given that it has those two cannons.


Its only 15 points cheaper that you entry, which had 3 cannons. I dont think its points cost is too unrealistic but im not used to writing rules (or playing much warhammer for that matter) so im probably talking rubbish. 220 is its basic cost but its max cost is 359 points.

Revlid Wrote:
Chaos Dwarf Juggernaut:  38/50
Use of Language: 8/10
A good, straightforward description was undermined by a few minor ruleswriting gaffes (the cannons can't fire twice each, can they?), and the use of words like "creepy".


I thought it was pretty clear that it could only fire twice. It follows the rules for cannons (which can only fire once) with the exception that it can fire twice since it has two cannons. Trying to find a loophole making it be able to fire 4 times sounds like something CheTralfara would say.

Revlid Wrote:
Balance: 5/10
Wow. Uh. You could probably do with a higher points cost.


I realise that now but i dont think its that low. I think i was going to increase the points cost but i was rushing to finish so i must have forgot. I dont know what i would base its points on in the first place. I think it was originally based on the warhammer siege tower but thats only like 100 points. So as it is its more than twice as expensive as the siege tower.  I think you have forgotten that 220 is its basic cost. If you think thats too cheap then upgrade it with extra towers and crew and field it as the most expensive it can be, which is 359 points.

Revlid Wrote:
Lore: 9/10
It already exists, so how can I judge? But I am docking you a point for the Boar Centaur. I hate them. And the defecting Dwarf, that's just weird.


How can you dock me a point over some personal issue you have with Boar Centaurs? I dont care if you hate them. And whats this other issue you have with Snakebeard? I didnt make up his fluff, i just worked on what i read from an old White Dwarf. Chaos Dwarfs were originally Dwarfs so whats wrong with more Dwarfs converting over to Chaos Dwarfs over the years?


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05-05-2009 05:52 AM
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Skink
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Post: #40
RE: Artisan's IV - Feedback DiscussionSkink 05-05-2009

Uhm... It seems like that only people who partecipated to the contest are replying this thread (a part a post of Kera and Grimstonefire).

I wish to read the opinions of other people, someone who DIDN'T partecipated to the contest. That's why I'm avoiding to judge other entries...

Anyway, replying to the Hellgate's questions: It is indeed powerful, but the competition rules actually asked for that. "Bull Centaur Daemons" are powerful indeed (especially with M8), but remember that they don't have any protection and if killed give 20 points each to the enemy. Also, I'm a bit puzzled about the presence in the entries of a hero level charachter (when we were denied the use of them)...


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05-05-2009 06:07 AM
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