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Golden Hat #10 - Closes 31st October
Author MessageGolden Hat #10 - Closes 31st October
clam
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Post: #21
RE: Golden Hat #10 - Closes 31st Octoberclam 09-13-2009

Your so right, Cornixt! The open competition is truely one of the more interesting ones at GD. This is where that studio designers, WD editors and Eavy Metal painters have a chance to come and play - but let me reminde you this is not GD, but GH. And will always be! You might have other ambitions, but ..!

And yes, have you given us ½ or a hole year - I might have found it fun to play in. But with 6 weeks and a very limited time shedule - no way. I'm not spending 10, 15 or 20 hours converting and painting a miniature to put it up against something like a shattered beast (sorry, Ishkur - no meaning to offend you). This comp is to surposed to be fun, and I really don't see the fun doing such a wide category - that will only favour those who have already started something or those who have way to much time one their hands.




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This post was last modified: 09-13-2009 04:12 PM by clam.

09-13-2009 03:50 PM
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cornixt
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Post: #22
RE: Golden Hat #10 - Closes 31st Octobercornixt 09-13-2009

I think you may be doing the voters a disservice. People might tend to vote for something new, but not necessarily something big or elaborate. There are things on the site that I like, but I don't think they fit the army IMO. I like to think that people will vote closer to it being a good thing for Chaos Dwarfs, rather than just a good/big/crazy model or unit. I won;t lie and say that a single infantry model stands as good a chance, but a nice frontline of blunderbusses is something I think would win rather than a big daemonic creature.


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09-13-2009 09:59 PM
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Post: #23
RE: Golden Hat #10 - Closes 31st OctoberBassman 09-14-2009

Ishkur Cinderhat Wrote:
Having thought about the pro's and con's I think this will be an interesting contest, although I agree with Clam and Bassman in that a less open theme would have been preferrable.

After all "something CD related" seems a bit redundant since Golden Hat *never ever* was about something "not CD related" in the past, or was it?

I don't agree with Clam on that Golden Hat is too converting/painting oriented. That's what this contest was always about, just like its big cousin, the Golden Demon always was. And I don't agree with Bassmann on that the size of the model was ever more important in the judging than painting and skill, although I will accept it as a criticism on my last entry.


Ishkur, my comment was not referred to your beast. I can't see nothing wrong in entering an huge war machine in a.... warmachine contest! Respect to the Hat!
You explained better than me what I meant about a less open theme.
I think it is a non sense to compare a temple packed with bulls (how could be possibile to not consider the temple a part of the mini?) with a death rocket firing a salvo of rockets.
I'd prefer to keep GH a competition of miniatures.. not dioramas (I know we had at least a GH with dioramas.... but I think they'll fit better into Artesan contest.. IMO of course...).

In discussion thread we all argued about what I've already done and what to entry into the contest. Already having a Taurus is not an excuse to not have a Taurus themed GH. Having a Golem is not an excuse too... an so on. If so after this GH when everybody will have entered his own Taurus/Lammasu/Daemonic engine/uber demon of Hashut.... everybody will have the excuse to complain about a Taurus/Lammasu/Daemonic engine/uber demon of Hashut GH competition. Angry

Said this I'd be happy to enter into the competition and enjoy all the crazy entries.... and I'll use my usual parameters to judge the entries... painting and modelling. If a single hobgoblin will be painted and/or modelled better than an huge golem of Hashut.... the hobgoblin will get my vote! Happy


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09-14-2009 03:29 AM
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clam
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Post: #24
RE: Golden Hat #10 - Closes 31st Octoberclam 09-14-2009

Ishkur Cinderhat Wrote:

I don't agree with Clam on that Golden Hat is too converting/painting oriented. That's what this contest was always about, just like its big cousin, the Golden Demon always was.


I didn't say that - so please quote me right Big Grin

I said it has become a more sculpting/convertion oriented contest. To me GH have always been a painting contest - but lately we see word like "creat a .." or "make a diorame" - and like Bassman, I think we have the Artisan for these.

And then it saddens me  to see that in some way better painted models 'loose'/ranked lower (don't make the cut etc.) -  because "they are not converted".

And, of course I want to see sculpted and converted models - but I also want to see cool paintjobs - and like Bassman I also do have a set of parameters to judge an entry where painting is very highly ranked. And I think that doing a single miniature give us both - and lets os all feel, that we have a chance ranking high - perhaps even win a medal.




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This post was last modified: 09-14-2009 02:23 PM by clam.

09-14-2009 06:10 AM
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Post: #25
RE: Golden Hat #10 - Closes 31st OctoberHrothgar Goldgreed 09-14-2009

I shall participate, and finally start and finish the project that, in the very beginning when it what nothing more than sketches and ideas, got me into Chaos Dwarfs. Takes Hat off


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09-14-2009 07:28 AM
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Post: #26
RE: Golden Hat #10 - Closes 31st Octoberdemi_morgana 09-14-2009

can't wait to see the entries! Cheers!

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Post: #27
RE: Golden Hat #10 - Closes 31st OctoberAGPO 09-14-2009

@ Clam - I think you're benig unfiar on the painting front. Painting is a factor people consider when coming to their decision, as is any conversion work and the choice of model. Everyone has their own reasons. I would vote for a simple, well-executed entry over an over-ambitious, poorly painted entry. If two people enter models of similar painting quality, but one is very well converted then of coourse the conversion will win, it's the better entry. You may as well say that a painting contest is unfair as it favours people who are good at painting. People who produce the best all round entry will win.

@ Everyone - I see where people are coming from on the "how do you compare a hobbo to an army?" question. Let me put it to you like this: If someone entered an awesome, scenic diorama of bull centaurs guarding the Great Gates, with superbly painted minis, excellent sculpting and a really awesome 'feel' to the whole thing it would rightly walk away with the competition. On the other hand a classic miniature, painted to an amazing standard would win hands down over a 'temple of hashut' consisting of three layers of grey sprayed polystyrene with some bull centaurs placed on it. It's not all that difficult to look at a series of photos and decide which ones you like best, you simply have to use your judgment.

Golden Hat has always been about the taking part. If you don't feel able to produce anepic diorama in six weeks, fair enough. Just enter something smaller. My work means I've never had the time to build an entry specifically for GH, but with this competition I can just enter whatever it is I'm currently working on. Very few of us have the time to enter every competition, but hopefully this one should be more accesible than the others. If you're still not happy then simply wait and nter Golden Hat XI, which will go backto a classical format.


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09-14-2009 12:40 PM
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cornixt
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Post: #28
RE: Golden Hat #10 - Closes 31st Octobercornixt 09-14-2009

Anyone who thinks it won't work is hereby allowed to say "I told you so" if it doesn't work.


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RE: Golden Hat #10 - Closes 31st OctoberSteveM 09-14-2009

I've got an idea for a fun little project that after GH could be used in my CD army with a few changes.  The problem for me is going to be the time allowed as I am also trying to get ready for 'Ard Boyz which takes priority.  That said, the 4 weeks after 'Ard Boyz should be sufficient provided I stay focused on the project.

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clam
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RE: Golden Hat #10 - Closes 31st Octoberclam 09-14-2009

@AGPO
Bad qoutes and exaggerations to prove ones stands - so who is unfair now?

I could give you quite af few examples to prove you how right I am, but for what reason? When it comes down to GH - it's 'just' a comp about, what people like/and don't like - and conversions seems to be weight higher than painting (IMO). If it was to be based on highst quality, we would have to concider GRNDL's idea about a panal of judged, really.
So back to the start. I was looking so much forward to this 'big ten' - and saddens me really to see that it ended up with 'do what ever you like - and call it Chaos Dwarf'. Would have appreciated something more competitive.




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RE: Golden Hat #10 - Closes 31st OctoberGRNDL 09-14-2009

clam Wrote:
I could give you quite af few examples to prove you how right I am, but for what reason? When it comes down to GH - it's 'just' a comp about, what people like/and don't like - and conversions seems to be weight higher than painting (IMO).


I couldn't agree more, Clam. Over the many competitions I have watched here, winning is pretty much a crap shoot.  Even subject matter is a critical choice - do you go Hat or Helm or Mask? Because that one decision will polarize the voters. Of course, its hard to see how much this kind of variable affects voting, but in the commentary following the posts of entries you see everyone's likes and dislikes coming out.  Some of the reasons people describe their favourite model, or the elements they judged, are to me, truly bizarre, but they represent someone's opinion and that makes them valid. Still, for the people entering to do the best they can and win the comp, I think its pretty random, at least when it comes down to "How can improve my chances of winning?"

Its easy to say that the GH is a fair competition in that everyone is judged equally - all entries are subjected to the same exposure to the voters - but each voter will be assessing entries based on their own subjectivity, which isn't objective and thus, fair. Does an original, very well converted but crappily painted entry deserve a vote? Does a really well painted, but unconverted model get a vote? How about a really well converted model that doesn't fit into the voter's vision of what a Chaos Dwarf is?

If this is a competition, then it is about entering to win, not about just participating, hence the "compete" part. And if it is about winning, then shouldn't that be a reason to judge fairly and consistently, especially when there is a wide variety of subjects being entered?


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09-14-2009 07:39 PM
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Post: #32
RE: Golden Hat #10 - Closes 31st OctoberGrimstonefire 09-14-2009

That is a lot of 'ifs' GRNDL. Wink

If we are all subjected to the same subjective voting (how many open poll competitions aren't?), then at least it is fair to all of us.

There may come a point where people think 'what can I do to win', rather than 'what do I want to do that may stand a chance of winning', but to be honest I suspect that for many people the fleeting glory of GH is a small consideration considering the hours of work involved.  I personally would prefer something I really liked, as I will have it for years to come.

That point seems to be getting missed somewhere here I think.  Do what is fun and what you want and if it happens to win a medal on a forum then that's an added bonus.

To be fair all of the competitions we've done have allowed people to convert as much as they wanted.  We have given people guidelines on how they could look at judging, but we've never told people exactly what factors they have to consider.  That would be silly, as people will always vote subjectively.


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RE: Golden Hat #10 - Closes 31st OctoberGRNDL 09-14-2009

Grimstonefire Wrote:
To be fair all of the competitions we've done have allowed people to convert as much as they wanted.  We have given people guidelines on how they could look at judging, but we've never told people exactly what factors they have to consider.  That would be silly, as people will always vote subjectively.


Well, that is the point, isn't it. A panel of judges will vote consistently based on pre-approved criteria, so within their guidelines, they are more objective than subjective. Open voting/judging will always be 100% subjective because voters are never held to any particular standard, regardless of the criteria you put forward for judging - that criteria isn't enforced.

And I think there was only one "If" and that was rhetorical: competitions ARE about winning, hence the root word "compete." If it wasn't about winning, we'd forego the voting and simply have a model showcase for WoH every 3 months.


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09-14-2009 09:38 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Golden Hat #10 - Closes 31st Octoberwallacer 09-14-2009

GRNDL Wrote:
A panel of judges will vote consistently based on pre-approved criteria


A panel of judges would leave us open to charges of elitism and the inevitable ill-will that would follow (even with pre-defined criteria).

Personally i've always just thought of GH and AC as a source of motivation to actually do something.  Granted it is a competition, but I would have thought that for most people having a nice model to game with or display in their cabinet is more important than some pixels on an internet forum.


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RE: Golden Hat #10 - Closes 31st OctoberBassman 09-15-2009

Holy Hashut, not a panel of judges please! I can immediately see ENORMOUS discussions every GH..... Angry let's preserve our democracy! Power to the people Happy

Clam and GRNDL: I generally agree with you about open competition and criteria of judgement. I generally prefer to judge painting over modelling but I cannot agree with your idea that every time converting is judged over painting.
It's not nice to quote my works but I think my bull centaur was the less converted of the the GH IX podium. Tjub and Kefas entries are massively more converted than mine ( and much better converted Angry )but I won, probably because of a collective mistake in voting Big Grin but maybe because people appreciate my painting of the banner. Unsure
At least in my case painting won over converting.
Sorry for quoting my self Tongue but I wanted to provide an example.

I do agree with Wallacer about GH as a motivation to do something!
Said this I continue to not approve a do-whatever-you-like competition, I wish next GH will be more traditional Happy


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09-15-2009 03:00 AM
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Post: #36
RE: Golden Hat #10 - Closes 31st OctoberGhrask Dragh 09-15-2009

There are a few good points here certainly.

Golden hats intent was always just to get people painting Chaos Dwarfs, if we got more people painting them we got more interest in Chaos Dwarfs (correct me if I'm wrong Xander Happy)

It has turned into our own little Golden Demon though and (just like GD) the whole sculpting/painting thing was always going to be an issue, but the big difference is... you get to decide! For me personally the nicest painted mini is going to beat something heavily converted and moderatly painted everytime and I'm sure many people feel the same. Have a little faith in the voters Wink

Part of the thinking behind this is to try and get people to do something really special for the big number 10, something you can sit on your painting desk or adorne your battlefield and be proud of for years to come. To try and get this from such a restricted theme like a specific model was going to be tough, so why not let you go wild and do what you want? though I do agree it will be hard to judge the variety, I think it'll be more fun to see what actually gets entered.

This is for you, your entries, your votes, your site. Do what you want.

As for me I will make the same promise I always do, this will be the comp I actually enter Rolleyes maybe as it is the big10 I should actually do something... maybe Wink


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09-15-2009 03:38 AM
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Post: #37
RE: Golden Hat #10 - Closes 31st Octobertjub 09-15-2009

I participate in GHs to get new stuff painted for my army, CDO is a great forum and there are lots of skilled people here. But in the end its just a internet community and I cant say it plays that role in my life. Sure GH is a fun thing, but nothing to get upset and argue about... Happy
Beeing in the place we are with no support for new models I think that creating your own should be rewarded as much as a great paintjob in GH, when I choose my votes I go for the over all feeling I get for the model be it a hobgoblin or a huge demon engine. But I think that this thread has proved that we dont really agree, so as long as everybody is allowed to judge and vote as they like it should be fair and reflect how the mariority of members on CDO wants it.

A good way to keep the entrys from beeing absurd is to set a fix base size of the entry, but for GHX we will just have to wait and see what will come... Happy
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Post: #38
RE: Golden Hat #10 - Closes 31st OctoberZanko 09-15-2009

I just wanted to say that I like the issue of the GH X! We all have now the possibility to paint/convert minis that lie around in our corners!

IMO it's a great idea! Worthy of the GH X Contest! Cheers!

I also like that the GH Winner will be voted by the CDO Members and not of a small elite! An elite will also not vote fair and objective cause everyone has his preferences which will influence their behaviour to vote (mask/helmet/BigHat)! So IMO Grass Root Democracy forever! Takes Hat off

Apropos it's important for me to have fun and to get a feedback (positive and negative) after the contest! The medal is nice as a compliment of the CDO Members but not essential!

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RE: Golden Hat #10 - Closes 31st OctoberRevlid 09-15-2009

...
I have literally no idea what to do for this competition. It's just too vague, too broad - something that will also make the judging harder, as voters will have to compare apples and oranges. I hope the next one is more specific.

I guess I might try to make a Kolossus or Bull Golem of some variety?

Unless my shop still has a Fen Beast lying around...


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RE: Golden Hat #10 - Closes 31st Octoberclam 09-16-2009

Think you are right, Tjub! GH was ment to be a fun aspect of CDO and our hobby - but (over) ambitious staff members seems to spoil the fun for me.

I was really not trying to start a argument here. Decision has already been made - and never had the thought that it was to be change. Don't even think I was upset - just disappointed. Disappointed to see that quantity seems to be a goal in itself - and then sad to see that GH was taking a direction I didn't like. So like Revlid, I'll be looking forward at GH XI - and until then, I'm sure I can find a painting challenge some where else, if I should feel for it.

But best of luck to those of you who will enter - and I'll try my best giving you an objective judgement. And then, I'll be looking forward seeing those vice decision makers enteries (for a change - as we are not used to such fine company), of course.




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09-16-2009 05:26 AM
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